[1] Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the Elders; the Elders to the Prophets; and the Prophets transmitted it to the Men of the Great Assembly. They [the Men of the Great Assembly] said three things: Be deliberate in judgment; develop many disciples; and make a fence for the Torah.And so it continues, each verse giving a maxim from a Sage. Many of these maxims are excellent words to live by. But that is not the issue. The issue is, does Pirkei Avot claim that the Oral Torah started with Moses? It does no such thing!
[2] Shimon the Righteous was among the survivors of the Great Assembly. He used to say: The world depends on three things -- on Torah study, on the service [of God], and on kind deeds.
[3] Antigonus, leader of Socho, received the tradition from Shimon the Righteous. He used to say: Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward. And let the awe of Heaven be upon you.
[4] Yose ben Yoezer, leader of Tz'redah and Yose ben Yochanan, leader of Jerusalem, received the tradition from them. Yose ben Yoezer, leader of Tz'redah, says: Let your house be a meeting place for the sages; sit in the dust of their feet; and drink in their words thirstily. (Pirkei Avot 1:1-4)
Avtalyon says: Scholars, be cautious with your words, for you may incur the penalty of exile and be banished to a place of evil waters [heresy]. The disciples who follow you there may drink and die, and consequently the Name of Heaven will be desecrated. (Pirkei Avot 1:11)If it is so important to be clear, and if the doctrine of the Oral Torah is so fundamental, why isn't the text clear? Why doesn't it say "Written and Oral"? Why is that one clarification relegated to much later commentaries?
Ami
i would say that the mishna in Avot alone is not sufficient - you need to learn the whole mishna, and then read it from the perspective of the Talmud, to understand what claims it makes.
There is some difference between the mishna and the talmud - Neusner calls this the "Transformation of Judaism". But that is just his view =)
Posted by: Eddie at November 2, 2004 02:50 PMEddie,
***You seem to be reinterpreting the mishna, denying that it makes such a claim!***
It makes the claim about "Torah". All I'm saying is, how do we know that, in the claim, "Torah" means "Oral Torah"?
Posted by: Ami at October 30, 2004 06:06 AMNir,
1. ***but doesn't seem to deal with challenges to the concept of the oral law.***
Interesting. This has been the Rabbinical strategy in later times as well. They simply ignore that there is intellectual opposition, and set themselves up as the authority. The strategy has worked well for them.
2. No organized opposition, possible Galilean lack of opposition.
Makes sense. In the beginning, Pharisees were a small sect. They probably didn't apply their rules to others. So other Jews naturally would say "live and let live". Especially given that there were many sects at the time. Plus life wasn't that grand either, most people probably didn't have time to have arguments with no practical significance.
Posted by: Ami at October 30, 2004 05:59 AMzachi,
***The term 'TORA' in the Mishnah refers to the Oral and Written Torah together.***
Yes, but how do we know this? As I explain, not from Pirkei Avot.
***The concept 'Torah' in the bible, refers to guidance (oraly or written).***
How do you know?? I have not found *anything* in the Bible points to an Oral Torah. On the contrary, all of the Torah was written down:
http://www.amhaaretz.org/2004/10/all_of_the_torah_was_written_down_at_the_time_of_moses.html
By the way, this link on your website does not work
http://www.miac.com/zachi/torah
Also, you list your research as "Using DataMining Techniques for pottery analysis". Could you tell me more? How specifically do you use datamining? Do you have anything on that in English?
Thanks.
Posted by: Ami at October 30, 2004 05:48 AMThe term 'TORA' in the Mishnah refers to the Oral and Written Torah together. The written torah was also transmitted by tradition. This is why is does not mention this specificly.
The concept 'Torah' in the bible, refers to guidance (oraly or written).
I personally don't give creditbily to the introduction of Pirkei Avot. There are many histrocial problems in that description.
Ami,
You make a rather good point. The Mishna does not try much to defend the concept of an oral law - it just takes for granted that the rabbis can decide laws, formulate new laws, and cite Scripture more or less out of context in support. Why is that?
Eddie refers to Jacob Neusner's The Mishna, a good book, which if memory serves argues that the Mishna's rhetorical strategy is just presume its authority and never explicitly respond to challenges. this can't be the whole story though because the Mishna mentions disputes with and enactments against Christians and gnostic dualists (e.g. Brakhot 5.3, 9.7; Megila 4.7), as well as Samaritans and pagans, but doesn't seem to deal with challenges to the concept of the oral law.
Possibly the reason is that, while many people didn't follow provisions in the Mishna, at the time there was no organized ideological movement against the oral law; Galilean Jews who practiced a more closely scripture-based form of Judaism were perhaps of the non-confrontational sort and could be lumped among the amei ha'arets of defective religious observance.
We do know that later, whenever there was an explicit challenge on the oral law, Rabbinic defenders were forced to be much more systematic about their beliefs and about attributing the origin of the Rabbinic tradition to the Sinai revelation. Thus we have the theologies of Sa'adia Gaon, Rambam, and the others writing in response to the Karaites, and Samson Raphael Hirsch and the other Orthodox writing in response to the Reform movement's criticism of Rabbinic law as a cumbersome invention. So my guess is that at the time and place of the Mishna, this sort of strong challenge didn't exist, and there was no need to develop a systematic ideology of an oral law.
It would be interesting to try determine how this ideology developed historically, since, as you mention, it seems to be only rudimentary in the Mishna.
Posted by: Nir at October 26, 2004 07:53 AMI don't think this methodology works with the Mishnah, If you learn it within the Yeshiva system, you will understand more clearly what it means.
The way mishna is learned , and analysed is an art in itself. Your approach is reminiscent of Neusner's, who argues that the Gemara is a sucessor system to the mishna, and i fact has transformed its true meaning.
However, i think one needs mastery of the talmud before being able to make such statements.
The whole transmission story is actually an attempt to verify the oral law as part of an unbroken chain. You seem to be reinterpreting the mishna, denying that it makes such a claim!
If tis claim ws valid, it is strange that it only first appeared at this time, and not in the time of the Neviim - prophets! Their times were more tempestuous than later times, yet they made no claim for an oral law, nor did they impose thousands of new laws to "prtoect" the Torah!!
Posted by: Eddie at October 25, 2004 12:04 AM